Shamed ex-地位，任命する Office boss Paula Vennells （人命などを）奪う，主張するs she had 'no inkling' there were 問題／発行するs with the Horizon IT ソフトウェア にもかかわらず Alan Bates' 警告 支援する in 2013

Former 地位，任命する Office boss Paula Vennells arrives to give her second day of 証拠 to the 地位，任命する Office Horizon IT 調査 at Aldwych House, central London

The 65-year-old businesswoman arrives at Aldwych House, 護衛するd by police officers, to give 証拠 for a second day at the Horizon IT スキャンダル?

Former 地位，任命する Office boss Paula Vennells on her second day of giving 証拠 to the 調査 at Aldwych House, central London

Alan Bates, former sub-postmaster and 創立者 of the 司法（官） for Subpostmasters 同盟

On the second day of Ms Vennells evidnce, the 調査 was shown a 公式文書，認める from Mr Bates, who spearheaded the 司法（官） for Subpostmasters 同盟 (JFSA) （選挙などの）運動をする, in 2013.?

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Alan Bates says he has 'no sympathy' for Paula Vennells after she broke 負かす／撃墜する in 涙／ほころびs three times - まっただ中に fury at shamed ex-boss' 'PR 陳謝'

At the time 法廷の accountants Second Sight were 草案d in to 独立して review 事例／患者s 伴う／関わるing the Horizon system in 2012.

In his email, Mr Bates said he was 'surprised' the pair had not met, '耐えるing in mind what has been discovered so far' in the 調査.

He wrote: 'I have little 疑問 it is now feasible to show that many of the 起訴s the 地位，任命する Office has 圧力（をかける）d home should never have taken place.'

Ms Vennells replied 説 she was happy to 会合，会う, but 追加するd: 'We are too 早期に in the 調査 to 示唆する that things have been discovered which call into question the 正直さ of the system or the 有効性，効力 of the 起訴s.'

And she 繰り返し言うd to the 調査 into the スキャンダル today her 主張 that she had no 推論する／理由 to 疑問 Horizon's 正直さ.

Ms Vennells told 調査 lawyer Jason Beer KC: 'I was 関心d to get the email from Alan. The point he was making about 起訴s was the point the JFSA made for a number of years - that wasn't new news to me at this 行う／開催する／段階.'

Mr Beer asked her: 'Is that how you would have thought of it, that this is just Mr Bates 説 something that he's always said?'

The former 地位，任命する Office boss replied: 'No, not at all.'

Mr Beer then said: 'Had you been given any inkling that anything had 現れるd that might 土台を崩す the safety of 有罪の判決s?'?

Ms Vennells 答える／応じるd: 'No.'

The 調査 heard the 地位，任命する Office's PR supremo 示す Davies gave Ms Vennells 'personal advice' on the extent to which past 地位，任命する Office 有罪の判決s were reviewed, on the basis that マスコミ ニュース報道 of each 決定／判定勝ち（する） might make it '前線 page news'.

Mr Davies said in 2013 that the 地位，任命する Office should not review historical 事例／患者s 伴う／関わるing the Horizon IT system from 'five to 10 years' ago because it would be 'on the 前線 page'.?

Referring to an email from July 2013 from Mr Davies, counsel to the 調査 Jason Beer KC asked the former 長，指導者 (n)役員／(a)執行力のある: 'This says 'you can't do that, you'll be on the 前線 page'. That's a grossly 妥当でない 視野 isn't it?'

Ms Vennells said: 'Yes it is.'

Mr Beer continued: 'Do you know why he 削減（する） everyone else out of the chain and replied 直接／まっすぐに to you?'

Ms Vennells said: 'No, I don't.'

Mr Vennells said she 'would never have taken a 決定／判定勝ち（する） based on the advice of one 同僚', にもかかわらず the 調査 存在 shown 証拠 she would 'take your (Davies') steer'.

The 調査 was shown an email from Ms Vennells replying to Mr Davies' advice to review a smaller number of 事例／患者s.?

Ms Vennells wrote: '示す, thanks for this and, I don't think we are far apart - I didn't say this approach would be our マスコミ 声明 but they would need to be 提携させるd.

'You are 権利 to call this out. And it will take your steer. no 問題／発行する.'?

Mr Beer KC then asked: 'You did take the advice of the PR guy, didn't you?'

Ms Vennells began her answer b y 説 'I don't remember', before loud groans （機の）カム from the public gallery.

After chairman Sir Wyn Williams 介入するd, Ms Vennells continued: 'As I tried to say before, what we were working to at this 行う／開催する／段階 was numbers of 事例／患者s going through a 計画／陰謀, and a 計画／陰謀 that was going to be opened up to anybody who 手配中の，お尋ね者 to come 今後.

'I understand how this reads, but I don't 解任する making any conscious 決定／判定勝ち（する） not to go 支援する and put in place a review of all past 犯罪の 事例／患者s.'

The 調査 was shown this email from Ms Vennells replying to Mr Davies' advice to review a smaller number of 事例／患者s

PR guru 示す Davies is seen giving 証拠 to the 調査 at Aldwych House, central London, on May 14, 2024

Police 護衛する Former CEO of the 地位，任命する Office Paula Vennells as she arrives at the 地位，任命する Office 調査 in London

Paula Vennells, former 大統領 Officer of the 地位，任命する Office, arrives at Aldwych House, where the 地位，任命する Office Horizon IT 調査 is taking place on Thursday

Ms Vennells later 明らかにする／漏らすd to the 調査 she remained in 接触する with Mr Davies even after she left the 地位，任命する Office.

Counsel to the 調査 Jason Beer KC asked: 'Did you 交流 messages with him about マスコミ 声明s that you might make and the マスコミ lines that you might take in the 告示 of this 調査, for example?'

Ms Vennells replied: 'I believe the 調査 has texts that show that.'

Mr Beer continued: 'Even though you'd moved on, he was still advising you into 2020 as to the lines to take in your マスコミ 声明s?'

Ms Vennells said: 'I had kept in touch with 示す Davies for 推論する／理由s that were very personal to him and I think he 申し込む／申し出d that advice at the time.'

Earlier today, Ms Vennels was questioned on whether a 審議する／熟考する choice was made to choose 法廷の accounting 会社／堅い Second Sight over Deloitte to review 独立して the Horizon system because the former's 提案 was 'much narrower in 範囲' and 'only looked at a 見本 of past 事例／患者s'.?

Ms Vennells said in repsonse: 'From a personal point of 見解（をとる）, I would say that is 絶対 not the 事例／患者. I?have no recollection of that at all.'?

The 調査 heard the 調査（する） by Second Sight into the Horizon system in 2012 始める，決める out to 調査（する） a selecti on of past 事例／患者s where subpostmasters were 起訴するd にもかかわらず 主張するing they did nothing wrong.

But Mr Beer said the review did not 請け負う what it had 始める，決める out to.

He said: 'If what is 述べるd here had in fact been undertaken, there is a 可能性 that the １０年間 that followed until faults in Horizon and the miscarriages of 司法（官） may have been discovered earlier?

Ms Vennells replied: 'I think that is a 可能性.'

Asked if after reading a line in Second Sight's 暫定的な 報告（する）／憶測 that there were 'no systemic defects' in the system, the 地位，任命する Office 'paraded that 結論', Ms Vennells said: 'It did come to that 結論 in its 暫定的な 報告（する）／憶測.

'There is no way I would have 手配中の，お尋ね者 to 説得する Second Sight on something they were not 用意が出来ている to say and I don't believe Second Sight would ever have agreed to that.

'If they （機の）カム to that 結論 in their 暫定的な 報告（する）／憶測, that was their 結論.'

Counsel to the 調査 Jason Beer KC then asked: 'Isn't that what the 地位，任命する Office 手配中の，お尋ね者 to 運動 them to and isn't this the 証拠 of such 運動ing?'

Ms Vennells replied: 'The 地位，任命する Office certainly 手配中の，お尋ね者 the 安心 that the Horizon system could be relied upon - that has been the 客観的な all the way through this.

'At no 行う／開催する／段階 did I get the sense that anybody in the 地位，任命する Office was going to be able to 影響（力） Second Sight over what 結論s they （機の）カム to.

'I would be very surprised if that was the 事例／患者 here.'

The?調査 later heard Alwen Lyons, former company 長官, emailed Ms Vennells in June 2012 表明するing former 地位，任命する Office general counsel Susan Crichton's 関心s about 含むing former subpostmistress Seema Misra's 事例／患者 in an independe nt review into the Horizon IT system.

Ms Misra, who ran a 地位，任命する Office in West Byfleet, Surrey, was 刑務所，拘置所d in 2010 after 存在 （刑事）被告 of stealing £74,000. She was 妊娠している at the time.?

Ms Lyons wrote: 'The 問題／発行する that （機の）カム to light with the 名簿（に載せる）／表（にあげる） of MP 事例／患者s was that they 含むd the Mishra (Misra), you will remember the 事例／患者 and the publicity, she went to 刑務所，拘置所 and had her baby whilst in there.

'The husband got publicity through 無線で通信する and 圧力（をかける）.

'Susan's 苦悩, and she raised this at the 会合 with Alice before you joined, was whether now 接触するing her to tell her we review the 事例／患者 would be a red rag to a bull.'

Asked if she 株d Ms Crichton's 関心s that even 接触するing Ms Misra 'would be a red rag to a bull', Ms Vennells told the 調査: 'No.'

Paula Vennells is sworn in to the Horizon 調査 at?Aldwych House on Wednesday?

Yesterday Ms Vennells wept when questioned about subpostmasters 存在 wrongly 罪人／有罪を宣告するd, 含むing ツバメ Griffiths who killed himself after he was （刑事）被告 of stealing money from the 地位，任命する Office.

She became emotional again as she apologised for 誤って導くing MPs who were looking into 選挙権を持つ／選挙人s' （民事の）告訴s about the 欠陥のある ソフトウェア.

And she fought 支援する 涙／ほころびs when 解任するing reading '乱すing' 証拠 of the 衝撃 of the スキャンダル on 地位，任命する Office 労働者s.

The 65-year-old said her mistakes would 'live with me for ever.'?

But she 主張するd she did not think there had been any miscarriages of 司法（官） until long after she left the organisation in 2019 ? having 以前 told MPs the 地位，任命する Office had 'never lost a 事例／患者'.

Ms Vennells, who served as 長，指導者 (n)役員／(a)執行力のある for seven years, （機の）カム 直面する-to-直面する with 犠牲者s at the public 調査 in central London, and had to wipe away 涙／ほころびs as she opened her 証拠 with a short 陳謝.

Turning to 演説（する）／住所 the more than 100 選挙運動者s 現在の, she said: 'I would just like to say ? and I'm 感謝する for the 適切な時期 to do this in person ? how sorry I am for all that subpostmasters and their families and others who 苦しむd as a result of all of the 事柄s that the 調査 has been looking into for so long.

'I followed and listened to all of the human 衝撃 声明s and I was very 影響する／感情d by them. I am very, very sorry.'

In a 775-page 声明 to the 調査, she said she wished to repeat her 陳謝s to all those who 'have 苦しむd so much from this terrible miscarriage of 司法（官）'.

She 追加するd: 'Their lives were torn apart by 存在 wrongly （刑事）被告 and wrongly 起訴するd as a result of the Horizon system. I am truly sorry and will so [sic] for the 残り／休憩（する） of my life.'

Ms Vennells had to return her CBE earlier this year after ITV's acclaimed 演劇 series Mr Bates Vs The 地位，任命する Office brought the スキャンダル ? and her central 役割 in it ? to a new audience.

The 任命するd Anglican priest had 辞退するd to comment 公然と since, but was taken to 仕事 by Jason Beer KC, lead lawyer to th e 調査, during her first of three 十分な days in the 証言，証人／目撃する box.

Ms Vennells wept as she apologised for telling the ありふれたs 商売／仕事 select 委員会 in 2015 that the 地位，任命する Office was successful in every 法廷，裁判所 事例／患者 against subpostmasters as it 調査（する）d Horizon's 正直さ.

調査 lawyer Mr Beer said: 'Why were you telling 議会人s every 起訴 伴う／関わるing the Horizon system had been successful and had 設立する in favour of the 地位，任命する Office?'

Ms Vennells, becoming tearful and reaching for a tissue, said: 'I fully 受託する now ? excuse me...

'The 地位，任命する Office knew that (not every 事例／患者 was won). 本人自身で, I didn't know that and I'm incredibly sorry that that happened to those people, and to so many others.'

There were murmurs in the 調査 room as she broke 負かす／撃墜する 簡潔に.

The 調査 heard Ms Vennells had sought advice from 上級の 同僚s ahead of her 外見 before the MPs when she asked for 保証／確信s that the system could not be 接近d remotely.

She was subsequently 現在のd with 要点説明 公式文書，認めるs on how to 答える／応じる to MPs, which 明言する／公表するd she was to say there was no functionality to change 処理／取引 data.

But, if 押し進めるd on the 問題／発行する, she could 追加する that there in fact was, although 'there are 非常に／多数の 実験（する） and checks 含むing daily checks'.

She agreed with the 調査 chairman Sir Wyn Williams, who said the 要点説明 公式文書，認める 示唆するd Ms Vennells was 存在 advised to 'be very 正確な, very circumspect, and very guarded' with her answers to MPs.

Ms Vennells also agreed with Mr Beer that it was a 'serious 問題／発行する' for 'folklore' to develop within the 地位，任命する Office, relating to incorrect （人命などを）奪う，主張するs about its 100 per cent success 率 on 起訴s, that Horizon was faultless, and that remote 接近 to the system was not possible ? meaning errors were the result of the subpostmaster.

Mr Beer said: 'Each of these things turn out to be 誤った. How is it that on all of these 批判的な 問題／発行するs, so many 誤った 声明s were 広まる within the 地位，任命する Office?'

Ms Vennells said: 'At the time they were not considered to be 誤った 声明s. I didn't believe any of those 声明s were folklore at all.'

Former 地位，任命する Office boss Paula Vennells is seen breaking 負かす／撃墜する in 涙／ほころびs as she gave 証拠 at the Horizon IT 調査 on Wednesday

Paula Vennells, former CEO of the 地位，任命する Office cries as she gives 証拠 at the 地位，任命する Office Horizon IT 調査 on Wednesday

決定的な to Ms Vennells' 証拠 was the extent to which she knew about Horizon's failings, and when.

She drew laughter from a handful of those watching when she 主張するd that she believed the 安心s given to her by 同僚s.

'One of my reflections of all of this ? I was too 信用ing,' she said. 'I did 調査（する） and I did ask questions.'

She said she was 'disappointed' that some 詳細（に述べる） 'wasn't 株d' with her. But she 否定するd there was a '共謀' to keep （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状） from her. Mr Beer asked: 'Was there a 共謀 at the 地位，任命する Office which lasted for nearly 12 years 伴う／関わるing a wide 範囲 of people, 異なるing over time, to 否定する you （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状） and to 否定する you 文書s and to 誤って give you 安心.'

Ms Vennells smiled 簡潔に as she replied: 'No, I don't believe that was the 事例／患者.'

She 追加するd: 'I have been disappointed ? 特に more recently listening to 証拠 at the 調査 ? where I think I have learnt that people know more than perhaps they remembered at the time or I knew of at the time.

'My 深い 悲しみ in this is I think individuals, myself 含むd, maybe didn't see things, didn't hear things. 共謀 feels too far-fetched.' She pointed the finger at 無名の '同僚s' who 'did know more （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状） than was 株d'.

The 調査（する） later was shown a text message 交流 between Vennells and Dame Moya Greene in January 2024, after the ITV 演劇 Mr Bates Vs The 地位，任命する Office 空気／公表するd.

Ms Vennells, the former 地位，任命する Office 長，指導者 (n)役員／(a)執行力のある, said Dame Moya was 示唆するing that there was a 共謀 within the 地位，任命する Office.

Dame Moya messaged: 'When it was （疑いを）晴らす the system was at fault, the PO should have raised a red 旗, stopped all 訴訟／進行s, given people 支援する their money and then tried to 補償する them for the 廃虚 this 原因（となる）d in their lives.'

Ms Vennells replied: 'Yes I agree. This has/is taking too long Moya. The （死傷者）数 on everyone 影響する／感情d is dreadful.'?

Dame Moya said: 'I don't know what to say. I think you knew.'

Ms Vennells 答える／応じるd: 'No Moya, that isn't the 事例／患者.'

Dame Moya said: 'I want to believe you. I asked you twice. I 示唆するd you get an 独立した・無所属 review 報告（する）／憶測ing to you. I was afraid you were 存在 lied to. You said the system had already been reviews 多重の times. How could you have not known?'

Ms Vennells replied: 'Moya, the 機械装置 for getting to the 底（に届く） of this is the 調査. I've made it my 優先 to support it fully.'

Dame Moya later said: 'I am sorry.. I can't now support you.'

'I have supported you. All these years.. to my own detriment. I can't support you now after what I have learned.'

Dame Moya said: 'I want to believe you. I asked you twice. I 示唆するd you get an 独立した・無所属 review 報告（する）／憶測ing to you. I was afraid you were 存在 lied to.

On Wednesday Ms Vennells also said she had no idea when she joined the company in 2007 that the 地位，任命する Office was 調査／捜査するing its own staff, taking them to 法廷，裁判所, and trying to 回復する money from them.

She said: 'I didn't understand that the 地位，任命する Office was bringing its own 犯罪の 調査s.

'調査s can be taken at all sorts of different levels. I certainly didn't read into this that the 地位，任命する Office was 行為／行うing 犯罪の 調査s to the level that I later und erstood.'

She said she did not 高く評価する／（相場などが）上がる the 状況／情勢 fully until 2012, when she became 長，指導者 (n)役員／(a)執行力のある.

Text 交流 between former 地位，任命する Office boss Paula Vennells and former 王室の Mail boss Moya Greene

As Vennells spoke, postmasters watching the 調査 livestream from Fenny Compton could be seen shaking their 長，率いるs and laughing

Ms Vennells said: 'I should have known and I should have asked more questions. I and others who also didn't know should have dug much more 深く，強烈に into this.

'It was a serious mistake that I didn't understand before 2012 the extent of what this meant.'

She said she thought 地位，任命する Office 労働者s were instead 起訴するd by '外部の 当局'.

She said she and other 同僚s 'were surprised' when they learned about the 起訴s by the organisation.

Sir Wyn said it was '極端に surprising' that news 'did not filter through' to Ms Vennells about high-profile 有罪の判決s.